CATALONIA -- ANC: "The right to self-determination is not exercised a single time and then lost, it is a perpetual right" - VilaWeb
ANC: "The right to self-determination is not exercised a single time and then lost, it is a perpetual right"
Interview of several members of the Catalan National Assembly, by Fernando Betancor
I had the opportunity to interview members of the Catalan National
Assembly and ask them questions regarding the “Catalan way”, the current
state of Spanish politics and their vision of the future. We met in
their headquarters in Barcelona and conversed in Spanish. The following
is a summary of our interview, not a verbatim transcription. The
opinions expressed in this article are not mine and none of the factual
statements made have been verified by me. Any errors or
misrepresentations of the statements of the speakers are entirely my own
responsibility. This transcription has been reviewed and approved by
the participants.
Present:
Ricard Gené, Secretariat
Maarten de Jongh, Economy Sectorial
Irene Martín, National Secretariat Nacional and coordinator of “El País de Tots”;
Josep Pedrol, Secretariat
Anna Salvans, Public Relations
Josep Vazquez, Economy Sectorial
Questions:
1. What is the Catalan National Assembly?
We are a voluntary association of individuals who are dedicated to
obtaining the independence of Catalonia. It is a citizens’ organization
with between 500 and 550 territorial assemblies in Catalonia, more than
30 abroad and more than 50 sectorial assemblies. The territorial
assemblies are constituted through local initiatives and require 20
signatures in order to be recognized. The foundational assembly was
constituted on the 10th of March, 2012 and has since grown to include
32,000 to 33,000 dues paying members and more than 20,000 associate
members who cooperate with us, but do not pay dues.
We leave ideology at the door. Above party politics, the ANC is
composed of people dedicated to the common project of building the
nation. Almost all of the Catalan parties are represented in our ranks,
but no one is allowed to take a partisan position in any official act or
statement for the Assembly. This has been a tremendously enriching
experience which has opened the minds of many of our members; it has
obliged us to work with other Catalans that may have radically different
opinions from our, except on the question of independence.
Five years ago, for many of us, independence would have been
inconceivable. The decision by the Constitutional Court to reject large
parts of the Catalan Statutory Reform in 2010 acted as a catalyst to
convince many people that there was no longer any other solution open to
the Catalan people. It began before that even, when the People’s Party
organized a campaign to gather signatures against the statutory reform.
The People’s Party tried to convince Spaniards through these campaigns
that “Catalonia is trying to rob us” which was humiliating and served to
increase tensions. Although the People’s Party was aiming to score
points against the governing Socialist Party, they were actually
slapping the Catalan people in the face. There have been many other
deceptions and disillusionments, but that one was the worst: it was the
one that made us realize that there could never be an understanding with
the rest of Spain.
In truth, the situation had begun to deteriorate rapidaly in 2003,
which is when we finally decided that it was necessary to reform our
Statute of Autonomy; precisely because the old charter was being
whittled away and ignored from some time. There are many laws the
government is not complying with, such as the law returning the archives
of the Civil War years to Catalonia from the National Archives in
Salamanca. Or the ruling by the Constitutional Court in favor of the
Generalitat in the management of university grants; that ruling still
hasn’t been implemented. We could give many more examples. The Council
of Statutory Guarantees (Consejo de Garantía Estutaria) publishes a list
of infractions and violations of the competencies pertaining to the
Autonomous Communities, which now amounts to a very sizeable tome.
Foreigners can’t believe that this is true, that no one demands
accountability or are ignored, but that is how it is. When some people
say that the demand for a referendum is principally due to the impact of
the financial crisis, it is a lie: it might have exacerbated the
situation for some people, but it was never the principal motivation.
2. What does the ANC do?
We have lots of very capable volunteers who are collaborating with us in our work.
In the Secretariat, we organize official acts and events, prepare and
send out communications. We work with the very practical objective of
trying to convince the public. Basically, we are working on five
projects at this time:
“El País de Tots”(Everyone’s Country): a space
where we want to provide information and arguments to convince undecided
and uninformed voters, as well as for maintaining social cohesion,
something that Catalonia has always enjoyed;
“El País que Volem” (The Country We Want): an open
platform where any and all citizens can participate, giving their views
on what they would like a new Catalan state to look like. It was
launched three weeks ago and is starting to gain traction. Anyone can
propose anything, and these ideas will be presented for consideration to
the first Parliament of an independent Catalonia;
“Catalunya al món” (Catalonia to the World): we are
trying to capture international attention, working with journalists – or
with anyone interested in speaking with us – not with the purpose of
convincing them, it’s not about that; rather with the goal of explaining
our point of view and our reasons for believing what we believe. We’ve
come to realize that understanding can often depend on cultural context.
Anglo-Saxons tend to understand us quite well, because they are
cultures focused on democracy and citizen empowerment; while Italians
and Germans, because of their recent history of national consolidation,
sometimes see things differently;
“Signa un Vot” (Sign For Your Vote): we propose to
collect signatures to present a mass petition to the Catalan government
and elected officials, based on our right to petition, which is a
fundamental civil right codified in Spanish law, in European law and in
International law;
“De La Desobediència a la Soberania” (From Disobedience to Sovereignty):
we are trying to paint the picture of the change that is coming in
order to prepare people for it. They are going to go from being accused
of civil disobedience by the Spanish state, to being sovereigns in their
own new Catalan state. This is a big change in perspective and takes
some getting used to.
Our basic and most important objective is to remain true to our
democratic and non-violent principles. After that, we obviously want to
secure the right to vote; and once we secure the right to vote, we want
to convince citizens to vote “yes”.
In the Economy Assembly, we have volunteer economists working to
analyze relevant economic information, especially to clear up the doubts
and uncertainties that the people have. We work closely to help our
colleagues in the other assemblies by preparing different types of
analyses regarding the most interesting and frequently asked topics:
what will happen to jobs, to pensions, to infrastructure. There is much
more we’d like to do, but it is still slow going. Our biggest success
came at the end of March, we organized a forum in Barcelona of
internationally recognized Catalan economists; this event was very
successful and had a global reach.
The territorial assemblies are in touch with the people; the
sectorial assemblies provide the information and analysis that the local
assemblies request; we prepare documents, presentations, we’ve even
written a book, though it is not yet translated into English. One of the
principle studies we are currently undertaking is the analysis of the
Catalan contribution to the Spanish budget and how much of it is
returned to Catalonia as investment.
Another of our current campaigns is “Declárate a Catalunya” (Declare
Yourself in Catalonia): once our citizens have filed their income tax
returns to the Spanish Treasury, we are asking them to share that
information with the Catalan government. This is so that a future
Catalan Treasury would have the necessary tax data for its own citizens,
something that the Spanish Tax Authority refuses to share. Even when it
is the Catalan Parliament that asks for the information. There is a
provision in the reformed Catalan statute which requires the joint
management of Catalan fiscal matters by the Generalitat and the Spanish
Tax Authority by means of a consortium. This provision was not among
those annulled by the Constitutional Court’s ruling; notwithstanding,
there has not been the slightest effort made to develop it.
The statute also established a bilateral commission between the
Spanish and Catalan governments whose purpose was to oversee the
transfer of those competencies which were to be devolved to the
Generalitat. During what was left of the PSOE’s second administration,
the commission did meet, though with meager results. The commission has
not met even a single time in two and a half years, ever since the
People’s Party won an absolute majority in the last general elections;
despite repeated and insistent petitions by the Generalitat that it
should do so. It is curious to us that the People’s Party should demand
that Spanish laws be obeyed, when they are the first to ignore and
violate them. After all, the Catalan Statute is a Spanish fundamental
law (Ley Orgánica), approved by the Spanish Parliament; it is not an
invention of the Catalan Parliament. It is also a political pact, and
that pact is not being respected.
3. The Spanish government insists that, in 1978, Catalans
voted in favor of the current Spanish Constitution and cannot
unilaterally ignore it.
Yes, in ’78 we voted in favor of the Constitution, because Catalans
wanted to recover their democratic rights and put an end to Francoism.
Since then, however, what we have seen is that promises are broken, the
legal framework doesn’t protect us and since we are a minority – and
always will be – we have no possibility of reforming the constitution.
What does it matter if our parents’ generation voted in favor of the
constitution thirty years ago? The majority of the Basques voted against
it; so? Does that mean they can leave anytime they want? Apparently
not. That argument suffers from a grave legal fallacy: the right to
self-determination is not exercised a single time and then lost, it is a
perpetual right. A new generation of Catalans now claims that right in
order to decide whether or not they will live under the same
constitution.
After many years of beating our heads against the wall of the Spanish
state, trying to reform it into something more multi-national, we’ve
come to the conclusion that it is best to simply jump over that wall. A
country where the rule of law is treated so frivolously – not just
towards Catalans, but towards all Spaniards – is not a serious country.
4. What is the relationship of the ANC with the Catalan government?
There is a commission in the Secretariat that meets once a month with
all political parties that support the referendum; evidently we don’t
meet with the People’s Party or Citizens Party. With the Catalan
government there are no official ties, only through our dialogue with
the parties. There could be personal contacts between members of the ANC
and the government, but nothing official and there is no political
coordination. Nobody here wants to make trouble for the government, they
have worries enough as it is. It is not true, as some suggest, that the
ANC is setting anyone’s agenda in the government.
5. How do you evaluate the results of the European elections?
The Republican Left (Esquerra Republicana) won a historic victory over
their partners in government, CiU: what lessons do you take from these
results?
It’s not exactly true that CiU lost the election – they ended up
winning 100,000 more votes than they did in 2009. But Esquerra did win a
higher percentage than CiU.
The reading we make is that people voted on the basis of each party’s
stance on the referendum and the party that gives the best guarantees
of that is ERC. These elections were turned into a sort of “pre-vote” on
the referendum and that’s how people saw it. With CiU, people have more
doubts about their commitment to the consultation, especially after
comments made by Unió leader Durán i Lleida. Also, one of the euro
deputies from CiU (the one from Unió) will be sitting with the People’s
Party delegates in the same European Party alignment, which generates
even more doubts in people’s heads.
6. What impact will the abdication of King Juan Carlos I and
the succession of his son as Felipe VI have on the “Catalan way?” Has
this event change the political calculus in Catalonia?
The ANC doesn’t have an official position on the king’s abdication.
It is obvious that the Prince will want to offer an alternative – a
“third way” – and perhaps to introduce some rationality and moderation
to the situation. The fact that he speaks Catalan is all well and good,
but when the Prince came to Catalonia last time, he met with a very
small group of Catalan businessmen, primarily those with substantial
business interests in the rest of Spain. Very good: but if he really
wants to participate in the debate as a good faith negotiator, he ought
to meet with the people that actually want independence, and explain to
us why we should change our minds. The monarchy talks about changing its
image, but the day after the abdication announcement, they celebrated
an official event with the King and Prince in military uniform,
surrounded by military officers, Civil Guards and priests. That is very
much the old and disreputable image of the monarchy; they ought to have
done a better job of scheduling events! It won’t be enough to speak
Catalan with a certain degree of proficiency to convince the people to
give up their rights.
We don’t expect much to change; at least those of us in the Assembly
have no interest in maintaining any link to Spain or the monarchy. If
their purpose was to distract us, they will not succeed. If the monarchy
had really wanted to make progress in Catalonia, they should have taken
steps a long time ago: now we really can’t see that there is anything
they could do to change the situation. Our objective is to continue
organizing the independence referendum in accord with our firm
conviction that the Catalan people have a right to decide their own
future. We say that with all due respect to the Spanish Crown and the
Spanish Key, but that’s how we see them: as pertaining to Spain, not
Catalonia.
7. The new party Podemos has erupted onto the political scene
as a potential third force at a national level, yet it received almost
no votes in the Catalan provinces. What is the ANC’s position with
respect to Podemos and their program? To what do you attribute the lack
of support for Podemos in Catalonia?
Primarily because Catalonia has the added dimension of the
independence movement and so the traditional (Catalan) parties were not
punished as severely as in the rest of Spain, as was the case with the
People’s Party and the Socialists. In fact, CiU ended up winning more
votes in absolute terms, thought they lost in relative terms to ERC.
8. The performance of the Catalan human castles was just
celebrated in 7 European cities in support of a Catalan referendum. How
do you see international opinion towards the plebiscite? Has it evolved
or is it still the same?
The objective of the castellers was to reach places we had not yet
reached, to be seen on front pages and on TV in countries that had
little or no knowledge of the objectives of the Catalan process. In
Germany, for example, we had a lot of coverage thanks to the unexpected
appearance of Pep Guardiola; in London, there was a great photo of the
castellers in front of London Bridge; in Paris, with the Eiffel Tower;
in Brussels, at the Grand Place. The idea was also to demonstrate the
values of the independence movement; of a human project, working
together, as a team, with great effort and coordination; in the end,
more than 5,000 castellers gathered in over 80 cities, though it was the
performances in the seven European cities that received the most
attention because they were staged simultaneously and were thus easier
to communicate to the local press.
Compared to 2 years ago, yes, there is a lot more international
awareness; before there were no articles in the Wall Street Journal, the
New York Times, the Financial Times or the Guardian, but now there are.
Besides, the international press is starting to understand the
important issues at stake, like democracy: why can’t there be a
democratic referendum in Catalonia like there is in Scotland? It’s also
true that a few years ago, lots of international papers depended on
their local correspondents in Madrid, who had a very definite opinion.
They accused of us being a bunch of wealthy elites who wanted our
independence in order to pay less in taxes; but bit by bit, the
international press is changing its message and focusing on the
Catalans’ arguments.
9. Is there any acceptable alternative to independence? Is
there any possibility or interest of maintaining some link to Spain –
for example, a dynastic union under the Bourbon crown or a Federalist
model?
At the end of the First World War, the last Kaiser of
Austria-Hungary, Karl I, brought together the representatives of the
Slavic people of the Empire and proposed to them a pact to change the
Dual Monarchy into a Triple Monarchy and so avoid the fragmentation of
the Empire. But the Slav delegates answered: “Your Majesty, that is what
we have been asking for all these years; but now it is too late.”
From our point of view in the Assembly, no other possibility exists. A
dynastic union between the two states as independent and equal, rather
than confederal, is simply not credible: they would not offer it and we
would not want it. Such an offer might have been acceptable years ago,
but not anymore. Regarding a constitutional reform to create a new
federal structure for the state: if they don’t even obey the current
constitution, why should we believe that they would obey a new one?
Independence is the only guarantee that we have – that they’ve left us –
of our rights.
10. How would you explain the “Catalan way” to an American audience?
We are in a situation where our constitutional right to autonomy is
not and never has been respected. Not only is there a complete lack of
willingness to develop the degree of autonomy in Catalonia that had been
agreed upon, there is in fact a grave regression in terms of powers
that had already devolved. Some examples of these include: the new
Education Law; the Law on Market Unification; the Law on Rationalization
of Local Administrations (municipalities and provinces); the Law on
Commercial Operating Hours; the obstruction of the restitution of the
archives stolen and relocated by Franco; the proposal to re-centralize
responsibility for workplace and labor conditions inspections; the
protection of the centralized and monopolistic airport administration
prior to a partial privatization in the future; and the reform of the
Law of Ports.
There is also the question of incompatible values. New laws that are
examples of political and social regression that affect all of Spain
such as: the proposed Law on Abortion; the proposed reform of the
Administration of Justice; the promotion of bullfighting; the
limitations imposed on free access to the justice system; among others.
Since we are a minority in the country, and always will be, and faced
with the definitive rejection of negotiation by the Spanish government,
we recognize the utter impossibility of reforming the status quo. For
these reasons, the solution is independence. We’re not talking about
changes in national ideology, shifts to the left or the right that might
suit us more or less; we are dealing with a situation in which we
either submit to permanent political and cultural subjugation or else we
free ourselves. With the former, we face the extinction of our freedom,
of our language and of our culture.
In the end, our political cohesion has been broken: but it has been broken by the Spanish government, not by the Catalans.
Section: Economy and Business
11. Recently there has been good news about private
investment in Catalonia. How do you see the evolution of the Catalan
economy this year? Which are the most attractive sectors for American
investors?
Catalonia is a technological leader in Spain. For example, the
sectors of medical research and development, the bio-pharmaceutical
industry, the agro-food sector, the automotive industry, the
audio-visual industry. This information is available to foreign
investors on the webpage: “Invest in Catalonia”.
12. Certain Spanish politicians and analysts have said that
the independence of Catalonia would ruin the Catalans. How do you view
this forecast? If you disagree with it, could you please explain why?
The only one who could ruin the Catalan people is the Spanish
government. None of the calamities these people warn of come directly
out of our independence, rather they would be the fruits of the Spanish
government’s revenge. The expulsion of Catalonia from the Euro, the
imposition of frontiers and trade barriers where none exist; all of
these would be imposed by the Spanish government as they certainly don’t
interest the Catalan government in the least. In other words, the pain
inflicted on the Catalans would come from the settling of accounts of a
vengeful Spain. But if there is a negotiated solution, there will be no
catastrophe: and it is in the Spanish government’s best interest to
negotiate so as not to be saddled with the entire national debt, which
they could not repay.
13. The same authors warn of massive capital and deposit
flight in the event of a declaration of independence. How do you
evaluate this possibility’ What guarantees or measures are being
contemplated by the Catalan government in the event of a “yes” victory
to prevent this from occurring?
There would be greater legal guarantees in an independent Catalonia
than in Spain today, where no one respects the laws or signed covenants,
like in the energy sector. In any case, the Catalans haven’t lost their
minds and our objective isn’t revolutionary, it is democratic. Private
investments would continue to be treated according to the existing laws
and would be protected absolutely. It should be obvious that the
multinationals that are investing in Catalonia today aren’t in the least
bit worried: it is simply not credible that they would have started so
many important projects in 2013 - nearly half of all industrial
investment in the whole of Spain for that year – if the investors were
worried about what might happen in Catalonia. In spite of the scare
tactics employed by the Spanish government, we might add.
Spanish legislation is already adapted to European standards; and any
new legislation or standards adopted subsequently by an independent
Catalonia would also be in accordance with European norms. That is why
investors don’t care whether Catalonia is independent or not; nothing
would change for them. What might matter more is the possibility of a
Spanish boycott on Catalan products after independence; but in fact, we
are already living with this boycott since 2005/2006. One study done a
few years ago estimated that the boycott could cost us as much as 2% of
our GDP every year. But, in some sense, this has actually benefited
Catalan businesses, who had to turn to exports and were thus better
prepared to deal with the crisis when it came.
14. What would be the attitude of the Catalan government with
respect to the Catalan public debt and the Spanish public debt in the
event of independence? What guarantees could the new state offer to
protect invested capital and assure the payment of interest?
That is more properly a question for the Generalitat, we can’t answer
it from the Assembly. Nevertheless, it is probable that the Spanish
government will have to negotiate: European and international creditors
will want what is owed them, and so they will put pressure to come to an
agreement on how to divide the public debt. What’s more, what happens
in Spain will affect the rest of Europe and the Euro. It is hard to
believe that the Spanish government’s intransigence will be allowed to
ruin the whole European Union.
